Omar vs. Ozzie

[the teacher]

Scroll to the very bottom of this link for an interesting comparison:
http://espn.go.com/gammons/s/2002/0209/1326114.html


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Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Gammons should be ashamed of himself for even printing that nonsense.

Let's start with fielding, since that's what got Ozzie into the Hall of Fame:

Yes, Omar's fielding percentage is 5 points higher than Ozzie -- .983 to .978. So what? Ozzie's career range factor is 5.03 (0.93 above his league's average RF) and Omar's is 4.31 (0.26 above his league's average RF).

Ozzie made 4,803 more defensive plays than Omar did in 745 more games -- that's the equivalent to 178 full games worth of outs in 4.5 more seasons. In an average 162 game season, Ozzie made 113 more outs on defense than Omar.

Batting? Ozzie played in the NL from 1978-1986 mainly in Busch Stadium, Omar in the AL from 1989 to present, in the hitter-friendly Kingdome and in the Jake. Anyone can see that Omar's .003 "edge" in OBA and .023 "edge" in slugging disappear pretty quickly when compared to league norms in each season played. Ozzie was the better hitter (but not by much) and for a lot longer.

Ozzie was the far better fielder, by a good margin -- he made more outs for his team on defense than any other shortstop.

Omar has been below average in range the last two seasons -- at age 34, it would be quite a leap to think he could improve dramatically in the next 6 seasons, and even if he could, he still wouldn't come close to Ozzie defensively.

Ozzie was above average in range every year he played, from age 23 to age 41, usually well above average. Only Maz was so far ahead of average for so many years.

As I said, Gammons should have known better than to try the comparison.

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[Alex]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan:
Gammons should be ashamed of himself for even printing that nonsense.

Let's start with fielding, since that's what got Ozzie into the Hall of Fame:

Yes, Omar's fielding percentage is 5 points higher than Ozzie -- .983 to .978. So what? Ozzie's career range factor is 5.03 (0.93 above his league's average RF) and Omar's is 4.31 (0.26 above his league's average RF).

Ozzie made 4,803 more defensive plays than Omar did in 745 more games -- that's the equivalent to 178 full games worth of outs in 4.5 more seasons. In an average 162 game season, Ozzie made 113 more outs on defense than Omar.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does this mean exactly?



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Alex

[Ytown Tribe fan]

What it means is this: Ozzie grabbed more batted balls and turned them into outs than Omar did. Every year, having Ozzie at shortstop gave the batters facing St. Louis about 113 FEWER hits than if Omar had been at shortstop. That made a big difference in team ERA.

Ozzie reduced the batting average of teams facing St. Louis by about .020 during his career, compared to an average shortstop -- that's just in hits he took away from opposing batters that an average shortstop wouldn't have.

Reversing that, if Ozzie had been at short for Cleveland, the batters facing our pitchers would have had 113 fewer hits than with Omar playing shortstop. That's a lot of hits, and they lead to a lot of runs.

As I said, that's in an average year for each shortstop. During their best years, Ozzie was well ahead of Omar, by about 150 outs a year. That's almost a hit a game by opposing batters that Omar would have allowed but Ozzie wouldn't have.

Fielding percentage is nice, but all it measures is the total number of errors in all the chances taken; range factor measures all the putouts and assists minus the errors per game.

Omar is flashy. Omar is a GOOD shortstop, a little better than average over his career. He grabs the ball one-handed and throws to first as well as anyone I've ever seen. But that isn't his job -- his job is to get to batted balls and turn them into outs, and he isn't close to Ozzie in doing that job.

It's nothing to be ashamed of -- no one else is close to Ozzie either, except maybe Rabbit Maranville -- but it goes to the heart of the "Omar for the Hall of Fame" debate.

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[Wilhelm]

Y'town, so much depends on the type of pitchers, the types of hitters. We can't really assume that Ozzie would be taking away one more hit per game than Omar would. Maybe he had more ground ball pitchers on his team? Maybe it was the different style of NL offenses in the 80's?

One comment on Omar's range: it's deceptive. You'll rarely see Omar dive for a ball in the hole without a runner on second. He tries to keep his feet to field so he can get some gas on the throw. He'll dive to keep in the infield and save the run if he has to, but other than that he doesn't.

Ozzie's biggest factor for going in the hall is how he dominated the shortstop position for so long. Omar has never been considered the best SS in the league, probably never will be with heavy hitters like A-Rod, Jeter, and Nomar. Anyone who dominates their position for that many years is a clear cut choice for the hall.

Omar may deserve it just on his glove alone. Gammons shouldn't have made the offensive comparisons like that.

Kaiser still thinks Omar is the best defensive player at any position, ever. (Includes Mays, et. al.) Certainly subject to debate.

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[the teacher]

I agree with Kaiser: RF is very misleading. we've all seen games where a pitcher has his sinker working and there are 22 ground ball outs. The infielder's range had nothing to do with it.

I disagree with Kaiser: saying that Omar is the best ever at any position is very bold! I do admire your chutzpah.

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Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est

[Alex]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan:


Ozzie made 4,803 more defensive plays than Omar did in 745 more games...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me be more specific, what does the above mean?


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Alex

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Ozzie played in 745 more games than Omar has so far, and had 4,803 more putouts + assists in his career than Omar has made.

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[Bye!]

What all this implies is that Ozzie had better range, Omar had better hands. Both were so so hitters but good baserunners. For Omar to have a chance, he needs to have 2 more solid years both offensively and defensively and on the basepaths.

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[Alex]

Seems to me some one is misinterpreting numbers.

So Ozzie has 4803 more plays in 745 more games...If I divide 4803 by 745 I get 6.45 putouts a game on average.

I don't know what Omar averages per game, but if it is anywhere near that amount, than the actual per game difference over their careers IS MINISCULE!!!!!

I don't think you are effectively using your comparison numbers.


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Alex